Comments on: The Future of Foie Gras http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras Cooking - Photography & More Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:02:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.7 by: Helen http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-3073 Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:48:56 +0000 http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-3073 I take your point about the anatomy, but that apart, a goose or duck left to its own devices would never gorge to the point where its liver is diseased. If the humane foie gras allows the birds to eat, as is their want in preparation for the winter, I have no problem with that. It is the force-feeding notion which appalls me. It is unnatural. Many people have lost their connection with nature and where we are in the food chain. By the way a friend of mine was at a'fancy' resaturant last week and there on the menu was'Free-range duck with foie gras.' Are they being sadly ironic, stupid or have I missed the point? I have no idea. I know you don't like people telling you what to do, but should you be getting drunk?- only joking! I take your point about the anatomy, but that apart, a goose or duck left to its own devices would never gorge to the point where its liver is diseased. If the humane foie gras allows the birds to eat, as is their want in preparation for the winter, I have no problem with that. It is the force-feeding notion which appalls me. It is unnatural. Many people have lost their connection with nature and where we are in the food chain.
By the way a friend of mine was at a’fancy’ resaturant last week and there on the menu was’Free-range duck with foie gras.’ Are they being sadly ironic, stupid or have I missed the point? I have no idea. I know you don’t like people telling you what to do, but should you be getting drunk?- only joking!

]]> by: Dave http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-3062 Sun, 20 Apr 2008 05:51:04 +0000 http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-3062 Helen - I have the same procedure done every fall - it's called an upper endoscopy here. I agree, not pleasant. But you are assuming human anatomy and human feelings for a non human - a non mammal even. If pigs were force fed I would assume they felt as you and I do. Ducks have very different anatomy. Have you ever seen a seabird swallow a fish whole? By your line of reasoning we should outlaw fishing because you don't want a hook in your lip, or horseback riding because you don't want someone sitting on your back all day. I have more to say but I am drunk and it is very late. From my perspective, I have PETA types telling me foie gras is evil, but at least half of their argument is about the birds living conditions (I agree, abysmal in some instances - but not in every) - vs veterinarians saying the birds are unstressed and it doesn't bother them. Whom should I believe? In their Virginia headquarters PETA "rescues" unwanted animals and gets them adopted. In 2006 the "rescued" 3061 animals. 12 were adopted. They remaining 97 percent of the animals were euthanized. Some friend of the animal. What I want is science, not the rhetoric of some hypocritical media hound. And, after all this - I don't serve foie gras. Helen - I have the same procedure done every fall - it’s called an upper endoscopy here. I agree, not pleasant. But you are assuming human anatomy and human feelings for a non human - a non mammal even. If pigs were force fed I would assume they felt as you and I do. Ducks have very different anatomy. Have you ever seen a seabird swallow a fish whole? By your line of reasoning we should outlaw fishing because you don’t want a hook in your lip, or horseback riding because you don’t want someone sitting on your back all day. I have more to say but I am drunk and it is very late. From my perspective, I have PETA types telling me foie gras is evil, but at least half of their argument is about the birds living conditions (I agree, abysmal in some instances - but not in every) - vs veterinarians saying the birds are unstressed and it doesn’t bother them. Whom should I believe? In their Virginia headquarters PETA “rescues” unwanted animals and gets them adopted. In 2006 the “rescued” 3061 animals. 12 were adopted. They remaining 97 percent of the animals were euthanized. Some friend of the animal. What I want is science, not the rhetoric of some hypocritical media hound. And, after all this - I don’t serve foie gras.

]]> by: Helen http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-3004 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:04:43 +0000 http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-3004 Dave-How do you define cruelty then? What is torture? Unfortunately we cannot communicate with animals to find out how they feel. Sadly we cannot ask the suffragettes how they felt when they were force fed in prison. All I know is that I have had a gastroscopy done with a mild anaesthetic. I cannot honestly say that it is a procedure I would want to have repeated three times a day for twelve days! So I disagree with you when you say that we cannot use a human standard to assess quality of life for a pig or a duck Sure, everyone has to die - man or beast( the circle of life and all that) but I refuse to accept that animal products produced by wanton cruelty have any part in a civilised society and I am not solely referring to foie gras. I feel very sad that there are people in this country who have made a conscious decision to supply this contentious demand so I do firmly agree with you over the education issue, but the point I made earlier still stands. Relatively few people know what foie gras is and even fewer eat it and as it is unlikely to make entertaining viewing on the telly, the grim reality of this disgusting product continues unseen. What do you suggest now? Dave-How do you define cruelty then? What is torture? Unfortunately we cannot communicate with animals to find out how they feel. Sadly we cannot ask the suffragettes how they felt when they were force fed in prison. All I know is that I have had a gastroscopy done with a mild anaesthetic. I cannot honestly say that it is a procedure I would want to have repeated three times a day for twelve days! So I disagree with you when you say that we cannot use a human standard to assess quality of life for a pig or a duck Sure, everyone has to die - man or beast( the circle of life and all that) but I refuse to accept that animal products produced by wanton cruelty have any part in a civilised society and I am not solely referring to foie gras. I feel very sad that there are people in this country who have made a conscious decision to supply this contentious demand so I do firmly agree with you over the education issue, but the point I made earlier still stands. Relatively few people know what foie gras is and even fewer eat it and as it is unlikely to make entertaining viewing on the telly, the grim reality of this disgusting product continues unseen. What do you suggest now?

]]> by: Dave http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2937 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:38:10 +0000 http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2937 Sorry, had to step off for a bit. Who determines cruelty? At what level does something become cruel? What is the next step? I can't see how veal is tolerated yet foie gras draws such debate. I make a choice not eating or serving veal. An intelligently informed choice (I hope) - but still mine to make. The marketplace is driven by demand, not legislation - if enough people are informed, they can make the same decision - production will become uneconomical and it will cease. Miles spoke of a group trying to bring the plight of non free range chickens to the masses - I wholeheartedly support this. I serve only free range - I serve only cage free eggs. It is more expensive, but it supports sustainable farming, and offers vastly superior taste. I make a choice to purchase these birds, and my choice registers in the marketplace. Sorry, had to step off for a bit. Who determines cruelty? At what level does something become cruel? What is the next step? I can’t see how veal is tolerated yet foie gras draws such debate. I make a choice not eating or serving veal. An intelligently informed choice (I hope) - but still mine to make. The marketplace is driven by demand, not legislation - if enough people are informed, they can make the same decision - production will become uneconomical and it will cease. Miles spoke of a group trying to bring the plight of non free range chickens to the masses - I wholeheartedly support this. I serve only free range - I serve only cage free eggs. It is more expensive, but it supports sustainable farming, and offers vastly superior taste. I make a choice to purchase these birds, and my choice registers in the marketplace.

]]> by: Dave http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2935 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:12:33 +0000 http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2935 Sorry, that should have been in quotes. It comes from a debate that took place on this site: http://www.accidentalhedonist.com/index.php/2007/10/16/death_and_cruelty_foie_gras_and_ethics#feedbacks Sorry, that should have been in quotes. It comes from a debate that took place on this site:

http://www.accidentalhedonist.com/index.php/2007/10/16/death_and_cruelty_foie_gras_and_ethics#feedbacks

]]> by: Dave http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2934 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:48:32 +0000 http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2934 From my own perspective, I've come to terms with the fact that animals have to die in order to feed the population. Even in the production of grains, animals die (how many field mice, rabbits, and other such creatures do you think get caught up in the combines?) If death is a common occurrence in the realm of food production, then it can hardly be called cruel. The cruelty then, is not that animals die, but rather how the animals die. When you start asking questions about the "how", then the questions turn to how the animals are treated. And when you start asking questions about how the animals are treated at death, it is also reasonable to ask how the animals are treated during their life. It is, at the very core, a question of the animal's "quality of life". The difficulty in this perspective is how to define "quality of life" for animals. Certainly it would seem a tad specious to use a human standard for the "quality of life" of a cow or a pig. What would make a good life for a duck or a goose? Here's where the opponents of foie gras fail in the debate. They have not yet provided any evidence that the act of gavage is in of itself, a bad "quality of life" for the birds. It is the incidental harms that they are focusing on (over crowding, sanitary conditions, etc, etc.) As not every foie gras producer is guilty of overcrowding or providing less than clean, then painting the entire industry with such a large brush is either being done intentionally or unintentionally. If unintentionally, then their position is based on fallacious reasoning. If it is done intentionally, then the debate then moves from a ethical debate, to that of a political one. And once you move into the realm of the political, whatever cachet one had from arguing from the ethical position is lost. Once politicians start telling us what we can and cannot eat (and really, what are PETA and their ilk but politicians...or at least political agents... in this debate?), then they've crossed yet another ethical line. From my point of view, that's what is at stake here - do we want political agents influencing diets based on nebulous ethical determinations? From my own perspective, I’ve come to terms with the fact that animals have to die in order to feed the population. Even in the production of grains, animals die (how many field mice, rabbits, and other such creatures do you think get caught up in the combines?) If death is a common occurrence in the realm of food production, then it can hardly be called cruel. The cruelty then, is not that animals die, but rather how the animals die.

When you start asking questions about the “how”, then the questions turn to how the animals are treated. And when you start asking questions about how the animals are treated at death, it is also reasonable to ask how the animals are treated during their life. It is, at the very core, a question of the animal’s “quality of life”.

The difficulty in this perspective is how to define “quality of life” for animals. Certainly it would seem a tad specious to use a human standard for the “quality of life” of a cow or a pig. What would make a good life for a duck or a goose?

Here’s where the opponents of foie gras fail in the debate. They have not yet provided any evidence that the act of gavage is in of itself, a bad “quality of life” for the birds. It is the incidental harms that they are focusing on (over crowding, sanitary conditions, etc, etc.) As not every foie gras producer is guilty of overcrowding or providing less than clean, then painting the entire industry with such a large brush is either being done intentionally or unintentionally. If unintentionally, then their position is based on fallacious reasoning. If it is done intentionally, then the debate then moves from a ethical debate, to that of a political one. And once you move into the realm of the political, whatever cachet one had from arguing from the ethical position is lost.

Once politicians start telling us what we can and cannot eat (and really, what are PETA and their ilk but politicians…or at least political agents… in this debate?), then they’ve crossed yet another ethical line. From my point of view, that’s what is at stake here - do we want political agents influencing diets based on nebulous ethical determinations?

]]> by: Helen http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2930 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:32:23 +0000 http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2930 I have had a thought about what Dave said- you know the attitude we all have when we feel people are telling us what to do. One of the teachers at a school I visit was explaining to a class what civilisation means and she said that it was where a group of people accepted rules and regulations so that law and order could be maintained and that therefore people could live in relative harmony even if everyone didn't like all the rules etc. Well isn't it the same with the production of foie gras. First of all the government will not allow its production in this country because it is felt that the process is unacceptably cruel, so why then are the majority supposed to "stomach" its importation and consumption by others? Apart from anything else it just doesn't seem logical or reasonable. Cruelty is cruelty. It doesn't depend on where or to whom it happens. We have a responsibility at the top of the food chain? Do you agree with that Dave or not? I have had a thought about what Dave said- you know the attitude we all have when we feel people are telling us what to do. One of the teachers at a school I visit was explaining to a class what civilisation means and she said that it was where a group of people accepted rules and regulations so that law and order could be maintained and that therefore people could live in relative harmony even if everyone didn’t like all the rules etc. Well isn’t it the same with the production of foie gras. First of all the government will not allow its production in this country because it is felt that the process is unacceptably cruel, so why then are the majority supposed to “stomach” its importation and consumption by others? Apart from anything else it just doesn’t seem logical or reasonable. Cruelty is cruelty. It doesn’t depend on where or to whom it happens. We have a responsibility at the top of the food chain? Do you agree with that Dave or not?

]]> by: miles http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2885 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:02:33 +0000 http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2885 Helen, Now that is interesting, there is a school of thought which says 'If it doesn't affect me then I'm not bothered'. Do you think people are less bothered because they look upon foie gras in the same way as caviar and think they are doing their bit by simply not being able to afford it? I would be very interested to hear what the BBC has to say in their reply. Miles Helen,
Now that is interesting, there is a school of thought which says ‘If it doesn’t affect me then I’m not bothered’. Do you think people are less bothered because they look upon foie gras in the same way as caviar and think they are doing their bit by simply not being able to afford it?
I would be very interested to hear what the BBC has to say in their reply.

Miles

]]> by: miles http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2884 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:57:52 +0000 http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2884 Alexia, Thankyou for your comment and welcome to the site, I am happy to hear from both sides of the fence on this matter and I am sure your website will be of interest to many of the visitors to this blog. I wish you well with your campaign. Miles Alexia,
Thankyou for your comment and welcome to the site, I am happy to hear from both sides of the fence on this matter and I am sure your website will be of interest to many of the visitors to this blog.
I wish you well with your campaign.
Miles

]]> by: Helen http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2879 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 19:11:52 +0000 http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/the-future-of-foie-gras#comment-2879 Just out of interest I asked colleagues at work what their feelings were about foie gras and I have to say that I was suprised at how many people not only did not know what foie gras was but also had no idea what its production entailed. Maybe this is going to turn out to be another class war which would be unfortunate because the aim is surely to eradicate a grim practice for the sake of the creatures involved. Isn't that what civilisation is all about? - protecting the defenceless never mind the politics, the economics or even a moral stance? I have written the BBC. Lets see what happens?? Just out of interest I asked colleagues at work what their feelings were about foie gras and I have to say that I was suprised at how many people not only did not know what foie gras was but also had no idea what its production entailed. Maybe this is going to turn out to be another class war which would be unfortunate because the aim is surely to eradicate a grim practice for the sake of the creatures involved. Isn’t that what civilisation is all about? - protecting the defenceless never mind the politics, the economics or even a moral stance? I have written the BBC. Lets see what happens??

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